> I have worked with charming psychopaths in the past as has anyone who has been in this business for some time, and you do get better at spotting certain things.
how many charming psychopaths have you worked with ? And what have you spotted? I seriously laughed out loud when I read that.
what is the point in your comment? To try and discredit me? what for? to harm underdog devs?
you cant expect me to take that analogy serious...you compare someone who actively seeks to cause harm with someone who made a terrible choice as a teenager, hasn't been in trouble in over 20 years, and spends his free time helping people for free?
Theres no way you can be serious. you know what I think....I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs. Probably why youre using a burner.
@RickWolter This has nothing to do with your story. I do not think I said anything to state or even imply imply that. It was not an 'analogy', not an attempt to 'discredit' neither you nor the organization. I have/had respect for both you and underdog devs, the work you have put in and the goals of the org. I do admit that the way you responded has not increased that respect to put it mildly. It certainly was not ''charming''. But hey, we all have our bad days I guess.
As to 'What is the point in your comment?'
I posted the experiences because it was/is a truly troubling situation for many at the company. Since this topic came up in general, thought I'd ask for advice from what I assumed people with more experience in these matters. Apparently, that is assumed bad faith. Isn't it sad that we have come to this where we can no longer can have questions or discussions? 'I think youre full of shit. I think you made that story up and I think you have some personal issue with me or underdog devs'? Seriously? I had never heard of you or underdog devs before this post.
I use a 'burner' because if I used my real account it would be very easy to find out the company and people directly involved, and that is not what I want.
And yes, you will find psychopaths in business. I don't think it is possible to have a full carreer without running into a few. And no matter how preparared you are, the best ones will fool you, sometimes even for considerable time. My advice there would be, if you see them decloack on others, do not assume they will not on you.
I feel realy sad you took this so wrong. I guess the net realy has no place for good faith inquiry anymore.
I misunderstood you. I thought the "But there seem to be too many notes here to not call it a symphony" was referring to me. I thought you were insinuating I was a psychopath.
I apologize. I clearly didnt understand what you were saying.
your reason for the burner makes sense. Im just so used to people using burners to troll that I assumed that was the reason. We have had more than a few people harass us by trolling our zoom talks and our posts.
my 2 cents .... its unnecessary. It often then just leads to me having to explain what that term means. I would much rather use formerly incarcerated. Its a fairly neutral term, imo. Its not loaded with negative connotations like terms such as convict.
Also the term "justice impacted" seems to strip us of all agency. I would like to retain at least a smidgen of autonomy in my decision making.
I can imagine that is true. I think OP has some rationale, but he/she has done very little second order thinking of the consequences of such isolation. It's very easy to make such harsh armchair statements on the Internet, but I think more reflection is needed.
As I explained above I didn’t mean solitary confinement. I meant simply not mixing with other prisoners. They should be able to see counselors, educators, visitors, etc.
Hey everyone. My names Rick. Im the person Adam is interviewing. If any of you are interested in learning more about Underdog Devs, please reach out to us on Twitter @RwoltX and @UnderdogDevs or directly to underdogdevs.org
We are always looking for people who would like to get involved
the most common involvement is mentoring and pair programming
we also could use help in other areas...someone to help develop partnerships, admin, and general marketing.
as for donations ... Everything we receive goes directly to the mission. We do not take a dime to pay for any salaries. None of us do. We work as volunteers. Every penny we receive goes to learning resources and to the stipend program to pay the bills of our most gritty who are held back due to their financial situation.
I enjoyed the podcast and also reading your balanced replies on Hacker News. It seems like you're not easily offended and you've had enough experience to understand why people take other (extreme) views.
coincidentally at Underdog Devs we took in some of the students from that failed project. It was called Mined Mines. A few still made it later and became software devs, but the majority didnt work out.
Obviously not everyone wants to learn to code. I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that.The (possibly overused) advice to learn to code is prevalent because software is prevalent
Ill repeat what ive said elsewhere...It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.
Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.
This isn't something Ive read, its something we've done over and over with mentees. I get that youre tired of that trite bit of advice, but its happening for a lot of people. There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.
thank you for the kind words. I was really lucky to get another chance considering the severity of my mistakes. Helping others get their life on track seems the least I could do.
Nothing pays close to SWE without going into significant debt and losing years in training. Any rational economic actor will do nothing but software in current economy.
Hi Rick, nice to see you here I was not expecting the subject of the piece to be here so that is pretty cool.
> I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that
Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in [redacted] teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is open to all and I quite often have adults that have been convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to code!" messages that seem to be everywhere the past decade or so.
Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across those I work with but across the whole country the figure is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it.
> It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.
I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a professional programmer for near twenty years now and love it so much I give my time to others to help them see if they have the same love for programming as I do. I have taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s how to code that have gone on to have careers as developers.
> With real commitment its very attainable.
This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for whatever reason but many times they don't commit because they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it frustrating and would rather do something else.
> There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill.
And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We need them.
> Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.
The point in my original reply was that in my experience the whole "learn to code!" thing is talked about as a solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind it.
Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and [redacted] schools and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made higher up but from how I see things it is because it is cheap.
Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the software needed is almost always free for education, etc. It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I know you know all this getting started with Python and OpenCourseWare after all.
Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to code is very near zero and that is super attractive to schools.
Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the way I do.
I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)
I agree with everything you say here. I was unaware that people have taken it so seriously as to feel compelled to learn to code. I agree with you, its being marketed everywhere.
And you are spot on about the other options (for employment) not being discussed. I think plumbing and HVAC (here in Florida HVAC techs are in constant demand) are reasonable options to pursue for many folks getting out but you dont see it discussed as much.
Obviously the allure of a high salary is one of the reasons people talk about coding more but the consistent demand for the less discussed skills should be factored in. Its damn near a sure bet you can find work if you learn HVAC or plumbing. In all transparency I only have seen and heard of the demand second hand, I dont know for certain. Ive never done either of those trades.
and no offense taken. Nonetheless thank you for explaining further.
I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons. I'm an underdog who is now a full-time software developer (thanks to the Underdogs & Rick ;) and trust me if I could be a doctor <insert career> that would take a felon I'd be happy to try. But here in America, it's not that easy. Especially when you have laws that flat out bar you. So though you might be right for your average citizen but once you get to our end it's not the same. Coding really is the best route for us felons. And thats from experiance.
> I think you're forgetting we're talking about felons.
Yes I made a mistake not clarifying I was talking in general about the push for learn to code programmes.
For people incarcerated I agree a learn to code programme makes a hell of a lot of sense however so do many other career options as Rick mentioned in his reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705015
HVAC is a good job.. so is a roofer.. and all construction.. and i used to do that and i dont knock it at all it kept my family fed BUT those are not careers i could recommend folks like me to try (because they're probably already doing that lol) Im just one of those annoying folks who just have to tell everyone especially felons to at least try coding. Ive already felt the financial impact in my life and its not the same.This stuff is life changing;)
I agree with much of what you said. You've also missed the point if you are referring to the non-profit Underdog Devs, which helps the formerly incarcerated become developers, with your bootstraps comment.
If we could become software devs "by our own bootstraps" there would be no need for an Underdog Devs. Thats the point, support is needed.
Overall I agree with you though, learning to code is not some panacea to cure recidivism. It is however a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record.
Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.
