I believe workaholists do not neccesarily love their job, but hate something else so much that they would rather find some place to take a bit of rest.
I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form of escapism – because the external world is frustrating to them. It is certainly my case, external world has all sorts of illogic demands, things that exist but should not be explicited, social rules, or various insults and condescension, some of them because we’re boys (my sister used to tell me boys have 13% fewer neurons, that’s why we’re stupid). So we talk to computers, although they can be extremely frustrating (I have spent hours at 7 years old finding the missing brackets — all of this in 1990 when I didn’t even speak English), but at least computers are logic. And they answer to us. They don’t make snarky comments. At least, when it fails, _it’s our fault_ . And we can fix it.
That would easily explain the gender gap in programming. It’s an escapism from the real world, while girls don’t need it as much because a lot of people are mindful of girls’ problems (notably teachers), or accept to listen to them.
I’d like to see an experiment: Give children 90% male teachers (the opposite of today’s ratio) and see whether programming then becomes more popular among girls than boys.
I'd add that there is some kind of toxic behaviour from men in my CS class. Think the typical 4channer type people. Obviously not all but when I had a chat with a couple of women from my class, they mentioned it was common to get hit on all the time during group projects when they were there to study and get talked down on as if they don't know what's going on.
I see similar behaviours to how men sometimes "gatekeep" games or even anything computer related. It's quite common to hear of stories women face on online games when they open their mic.
Is there a chance they'd avoid it based on the type of people they might face? Maybe.
How do you make the difference between being talked down because of gender, or because you didn’t practice the skills at the game enough, or bad relations or similar? Is it really the boy’s role to make the experience beautiful for girls? in which case, boys would have the gendered role of explaining the games to girls.
> gatekeeping games
You see, that is my point. Pretty much all activities of real life are gatekept. Programming is the only one that isn’t.
As a boy, 7 years old, my father took both my bigger sister and myself to explain the MS-DOS commands he knew. But does reading the 500-pages book on GW-BASIC by myself to understand how it works, even though I was French and 7yo and I had zero knowledge of English, sound like good gatekeeping to you? But my sister was then invited to various activities in school, including the school programming club if she wanted, but she chose the football club (and this was in the 1990ies). I wasn’t.
So I stuck with programming. No gatekeeping, no social inclusion, just RTFM until you understand the commands.
>I have the theory that boys get into programming as a form of escapism
Absolutely my case, except that I'm a big boy approaching 40. I don't work as a programmer, but the job exposes extensive SQL and Python to me (SQL for querying db and Python for automating and sticking together things).
From my experience, programming is so far the only activity that can satisfy my need for creating things and escaping from this world. I mean I can't really cut off all my ties to this world but it's nice to have a small world of my own to enjoy myself, from time to time.
Oh wow. This hits it on the nail. Some of the teachers who understood how to teach me were male. Only one woman knew how to teach me. In India, school teachers are almost always women. I turned to programming as soon as I got a computer. I also read a lot of escapist fiction. Fiction that wasn't based in India or in the real world. Tolkien, Eddings, Robert Jordan, Terry Brook, Agatha Christie (I know but her books weren't based in our time so I seemed to see it as escapism).
Thanks for making the effort to point this out. Do you have any reading material on the topic?
It's definitely not just boys who get into programming for the escapism, but anyone who is unhappy with how their body or how they look. Computer Science attracts more trans people than any profession I know that isn't related to drag performance.
For me personally, I loved programming as a kid because it had a macho culture I could actually participate in (programming definitely has a macho culture of all-nighters, showing off skills, putting down people who don't understand things as well) and my body (which I hated) didn't matter. Now that I have transitioned to male and have a body I can stand, I actively dislike Computer Science and can't wait to leave it.
As an aside, programming was heavily female-dominated when my grandma was a programmer. There are a lot of factors that contributed to the shift, including changing professional requirements, new job opportunities for women, the advertising around video games, and the stereotypes that developed about programming and nerd culture.
Workaholism and programming are two symptoms much more widespread among men than women. It is not necessarily gender, but it is heavily correlated with it. As said, the experiment I’ve described could “test” whether it is gendered or not.
For example, it could be Asperger. I haven’t been personally diagnosed, though. But even Asperger is more often diagnosed in boys than girls.
Other example, it could be behavior. Most beaten kids are boys. Either it is because of gender bias in the parent, either in it because of different behavior in the child; If we assume the former, it means parents are more violent towards the boy, if we assume the latter, it means the boys’ attitude provokes the parent more. Either way, the real world is less comfortable for those, in average.
There could be many profiles, only one of them “retires” in a virtual world, and some girls do fit the same profile. However, there is still a correlation.
As for “why did I assume it was because of my gender”, it is because of “Boys have 13% fewer neurons” is oriented towards gender, not profile, like many other events in life.
I think your interest in computers was inherent. It was the same for me and I bet same for many others in this sub.
I always felt something was not right with me and took every opportunity to be normal, socialize, blend in.
In the end, I became a lawyer. The only computer skill I use for my job is Microsoft Office. The work drains my energy so I don't have much much left for programming. Even though I try, I still can't fully blend in, people notice something's off with me.
I seriously suspect being a computer nerd is something inherent, we are drawn to computers because we are genetically coded this way. How else could you explain spending tons of hours as a child trying to learn programming without any guidance or external motivation?
I think it's different for entrepreneur workaholics. Your startup is your baby. It's fun. It's challenging. It's rewarding.
And when you're young I think it's great to dedicate to work. You accelerate your learning. You make more money. You meet smart people. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable and skilled for their age that did a work/life balance route.
If you are a workaholic but also a learnaholic, then I don't buy that as this toxic thing that can drive mental and physical health issues. Ok, maybe sleep issues.
I have a few businesses and I'd rather work on them than spend time on social media like my non-workaholic friends.
It's ok for people to say "you work too much", but I don't tell my friends "you spend too much time on Facebook". Maybe I should though?
I do agree that it can be a big problem though. Many dedicate themselves to their work because they are escaping something or avoiding other important obligations.
If that doesn't apply, then go get it!
Life is a hell of a lot more enjoyable when you don't have to worry about finances.
My parents told me "you care too much about money". No I care infinitely about NOT worrying about money. There's a difference.
You can care about money a lot, be focused on financial freedom and not be a Scrooge and accumulating for no reason.
You do know that social media is not the only thing one can do outside of work, right?
Like, there are ways of spending time living that don’t revolve around trying to make “gains”; social, financial or any other kind.
Maybe this is something that your parents mean - they’re expressing a worry over whether you’re getting value out of life, as you’re hustling through all those businesses you seem to be running?
I notice entrepreneurs using the baby analogy a lot. It’s an interesting distortion of reality...
No my parents misunderstand. They are constantly worrying about money. Some people I think just see others working hard and it's framed on their experience of work.
I grew up a latch key kid and they worked very hard to help me get a great education. Based on this upbringing, I started my family later. As I had planned, I have no financial worries. That unlocks a lot of freedom.
> Like, there are ways of spending time living that don’t revolve around trying to make “gains”; social, financial or any other kind.
No there are not. Everything has a gain of some sort. Even charity work or meditation.
> I notice entrepreneurs using the baby analogy a lot. It’s an interesting distortion of reality...
I have kids and I don't think it's a distortion from that.
You also have to remember that a lot of people choose not to have kids. So yes, that is their figurative baby. Some others may have a dog.
Hilarious how the parent comment seems to categorize the whole rest of life on earth as “meh they’re probably on Facebook”. You know there’s nature, art, other intellectual pursuits, people, using your body in various ways etc.
"On average, global internet users spent 144 minutes on social media sites every day"
The Philippines spends almost 4 hours a day.
I obviously know there are things to do that are not social media. No need to be snarky. I just find that most of the people that have mentioned "you work too much" are heavier than the average social media user.
The important distinction, for me, is the self-awareness to truly chose to work more and understand what you're giving up in the process.
I spent a long time being sucked into overworking primarily because I wanted to avoid some aspect of my life without realizing it. I compromised relationships, stopped hobbies that made me relaxed and happy--again without realizing it.
It's scary how life can just pass by while you're in a state like that.
But as long as you're aware of what you're doing, why you're doing it, and the "life debt" you're taking on--rock and roll. Pouring yourself into creating something really is an incredible thing.
That's out of my definition of workoholics though. So I could be biased as I'm using my own definition. IMO if you really enjoy your wor then you are not a workoholic.
I'd agree with you on that too. The article says 7 more hours a week is a workaholic though and based on my experience with friends and family - they too make no distinction on whether you enjoy it or not. Even if you tell them, they don't have that experience to understand.
Kind of funny though. Nobody tells an athlete they "train too much". Or a researcher that they "research too much".
I probably should have worded that better. The elite athletes and professional researchers - sure that happens.
I guess I'm trying to say - if it's not your career - if you spent 7+ hours per week training for your physical body, practicing your sport or doing research nobody would say anything about it.
So and so is fit and exercises a lot. They look good, that's their jam. So and so is researching a lot or working on a really hard problem. Nice. Good for them.
You work harder than the average on your brain and/or business - "you work too much"
I'm not sure why people can't differentiate that for many:
1) going above and beyond is necessary to level up (especially to make your business a success)
2) people can find that process enjoyable and rewarding (especially if they do it with people they like)
I think the self-employed specifically get a bad rap about "working too much". I'm sure there are some fortunate souls, but I don't know any business owners that clocked in and clocked out average work weeks to success.
Although I agree that there's a workaholic problem for many as they scale the ladder or consume themselves with work to avoid some other issue in their life.
I just don't like the notion that if you work more than the average Joe you don't have a work/life balance or it will cause all these issues.
Just pulled this up and its worse than I would have guessed - "Only 15% of workers are engaged at their job". This is globally. In the US it's 30% engaged [1]
That's pretty telling to me then. If you aren't engaged at your job - you will think 7 more hours a week is a bad idea and a workaholic. And probably make yourself feel better about using those 7 hours for your hobby or whatever is not your "engaged job"
absolutely. I used to use alcohol and other drugs to escape...whatever that is, I haven't figured it out. now that I'm dry - I use physical labor. just as at one point in my life I used programming.
at the studio where I work nearly everyone is 'in recovery' and everyone is quite open that the work is filling that hole.
A manager of mine used to do 12-14 hour day Monday-Friday and sometimes go to the office to work over the weekend as well. Him and his girlfriend weren’t getting on at the time and he’d rather be working than in the house with her
Yeah definitely. Sometimes you can't simply cut something away so you have to try to stay away from it as long as possible. I think the situation would improve if they just separate.
I'm one and personally I have a lot of pride in my work, no matter what I'm doing, so it takes me longer to do things than someone else that just scraps things together. This leads to me spending way more time on work.
I'm a recovering workaholic. I have never loved a job that I've had but I love the feeling of accomplishing things or being "done". Often that "done" feeling only came after I was at the office until 8pm.
I hate the feeling of "not done" and plus as a BA we have tons of ad-hoc things, so I typically work till 7pm and more everyday. I also work on SAT and SUN sometimes. The work is 33%-40% enjoyable as I'm transitionting into a BI (data modeler + a bit of data engineering) role.
Just cut up your tasks more. I get the feeling of done at 5pm these days because I keep a log on where I’m at and what’s next. Done is arbitrary. It might as well be a component rather than the whole thing.
I've never been able to do this effectively. I'm either on or I'm off. I can't have work emails/slacks push to my phone during off hours unless its an emergency.
May have something to do with my ADHD but when I'm not working I need to be offline or else I feel like I'm always working.
I went on vacation from mid-December and returned to work a few days ago (no lockdown here, office worker). I spent the entire "vacation" in pain, weakness, and/or headaches, but now they are gone (as is the money spent on treatment). I need to check if this has anything to do with my shitty home chair and couch or just being in the office. It would be very nice if the problem was in the furniture.
Upd: no, it’s not that virus (tested). And I had the same problem in March when everyone went to "holidays" for a month. Hell, as I write this I get more and more of it... Thank you, thread.
I think I'm developing into one...